Listen to the full interview:
1. You started in banking and went to completely different industries. Why did you choose to transition?
“I was lucky enough to be in banking for almost 10 years, and it was very good for me. I learned a lot about different elements of the HR program cycle and the employee life cycle. I was an HR business partner for the branch network of one of the top five banks in the city [Toronto]. I got to work with people like you in that environment and I also worked in diversity and inclusion. Then I actually got to be the Chief of Staff for the CHRO, which was an incredible experience. I got to see the company function from a 10,000-feet view. In that role, I got to do some interesting pilot programs, like workplace transformation. We got to design new workplaces with employee input and work cross-functionally with real estate technology and HR to design what’s working. That was all before the pandemic. Before it was invoked to work from home, we were talking about how leaders had to lead differently, along with the technology, space, and policy requirements to make that happen. It was an incredible adventure.
But then I got that feeling we all get—it might be time for the next challenge. When I looked internally at BMO, there were some interesting opportunities, but nothing got me excited. For a while, I felt a bit stuck, and that stuck feeling led me to explore some of my passions.”
2. What did it feel like when you knew you were ready to switch into something new?
“I would reflect on my day and things that were par for the course made me more frustrated than they should have. Little hiccups or disagreements I knew were objectively a 2 out of 10 intensity were a 7 or 8 out of 10 intensity. I think that was partially because of some boundary issues I had: working very early and working into the evening, as well as the intensity of some of the projects I was working on.
I was also feeling like a one trick pony. I had a very specific set of skills that I kept repeating, which I was very proud of and I’m still proud of. But I felt that stuck feeling of: am I really growing here? I’m a bit skeptical when people want a new challenge. I don’t want everything in my world to be hard. But I wanted to flex some new muscles. And that’s where I was interested in things like culinary arts and coaching. They’re two very different things, but by investing some learning in both of those areas, I found it refreshing knowing I had my cooking class that evening. It made those 2 out of 10 problems at work really feel like 2 out of 10. I would be able to really unplug and focus on something else, whereas before I was doing that investment in learning, I was ruminating a lot on those problems or taking them home with me.”
3. What did you lean on to make job transitioning successful in your career?
“I started my career in banking right in the middle of the financial crisis in 2009/2010. Great timing. That theme pops up a lot. I started in hospitality and live events right when COVID hit. I have a bit of a track record. I started in the middle of that recession. I was early in my career, I was young. I was being trusted with a lot because there were less people around. There were a lot of layoffs happening, which I know a lot of people can relate to these days. Being at the same company for my entire career became less and less realistic or even the goal.
I was sitting there and wanting to demonstrate my commitment and usefulness. But because I didn’t have a lot of expertise or tenure, I showed that by giving my time. If there was a weekend activity for the diversity and inclusion team, I put up my hand and spent my Saturday there. I would check my emails almost every 15 to 20 minutes after work so that as soon as something came in from a senior person, I was the first to reply or demonstrate I was on the ball. And you know what? I wouldn’t change it when I was 23 because I was being given the opportunity to be in boardrooms I had no business being in. I was learning.
However, I carried that too far into my career where I needed reset time to critically think about problems or take time to keep myself sharp through research and learning. That’s where I started to understand the value even through the cooking course I took. I had to be 100% focused on it. I’m near a deep fryer, holding a giant knife. I have a chef who has expectations on what we need to complete in that 3-hour period. So, I can’t check my work email. It’s not safe. It’s also disrespectful to the people around me. That helped with starting to get me unplugged from some of those behaviors that served me at the beginning of my career but were holding me back mid-career.”
4. What was the hardest part of switching jobs and what did you learn about yourself?
“I went from an over 200–year–old organization to one that was under 10-years-old. I went from a board structure and a leadership/CEO team structure to an owner–operated model. There was culture shock. At the bank we were being wise about efficiency. It was more of an academic discussion than a strategic choice around the efficiencies. In the owner–operated model—and I’ve now worked at two owner-operated models—spending is personal. It’s the actual owner’s (in their mind) money. And even if they’re incorporated, even if they’re a 700–person organization, and even though they may be coached to not think so personally about their balance sheet, at the end of the day, they truly see it as their money in, their money out. That can have a positive impact, but it can create some blind spots. How I approached conversations in a corporate environment versus an owner-operated environment needed to change because those owner operators have valid feelings about how waste impacts their business and bottom line, how different leadership behaviors and people’s commitment to the business influences the company. It’s a completely different worldview. It’s a completely different business approach. Knowing how to master some of the language and approaches took time. It wasn’t impossible. I think one person going from owner–operated to corporate or going corporate to owner–operated, they can learn those skills. It’s just about being aware and using your network and tools to learn as quickly as possible.”
5. So, you went from banking to hospitality. What happened next?
“I saw an amazing opportunity at a real estate firm that was number one with Royal LePage in Canada, as well as number one in central Toronto. They were doing things very differently. They were incredibly client focused. They were bucking the trend of what it meant to be a real estate agent. This really got my attention, so when the owner posted a hybrid operations and people role, I was interested. You don’t often see this kind of combination. It sparked a conversation that sparked a role. Sometimes it just comes together, and it was an opportunity I couldn’t pass up. There were also some personal pieces to it. The job was a few blocks away from where my parents live, so I wanted the ability to spend more casual time checking in with them and connecting. That was also a motivator.”
6. How did your Brilliant Difference, personal brand, help you present yourself during the job transition process?
“It showed up as a three-pronged approach.”
Strategy 1: Vet the Job Description and Look for Areas of Alignment to Discuss (It Doesn’t Need to Be Perfect)
“Start with the job description. That’s always great because you’re able to see where those alignment points are. Also, as we get more senior in our careers, it’s incumbent on you as the candidate to also treat it like a discussion. People respect that more and they feel you’re more seasoned, that you’re coming at the role from curiosity versus pick–me energy. I studied the job posting. I saw they were looking for someone who can really lead the people function through a values lens. Tick. I know I can do that. I can prove that multiple times over. They’re looking for someone with systems experience. Tick again. Do I know real estate systems? Do I know point of sale systems and client relationship management software? I don’t, but I know HR, hospitality, and banking software. I could come in with a curiosity to say these are the types of change projects I’ve led. Is this similar to what you’re looking for? And there was a match. So again, coming at it from curiosity versus trying to find a perfect match. That’s element one.”
Strategy 2: Create a Library of Work Stories and Milestones You’re Proud of and Rehearse Them (Forget the Jargon)
“Next is to take an inventory of the stories you’re proud of. Ultimately, we often are so focused on just getting to the next day or the next weekend or the next quarter that we don’t take stock on actually how much we’ve done. Doing that audit and saying you’ve survived the pandemic, or you’ve launched a project quantifies that. Make sure you can talk about it in a way that isn’t inside baseball. Make sure you’re taking out all the jargon from the company or all the inside speak and make it something you can tell at a cocktail party. How many of us have friends where we have no idea what they actually do for work? It’s an opportunity to test out your stories with some of your friends so that they can ensure you’re speaking about your experience in a way that’s easily understandable.”
Strategy 3: Do Your Research (Speak the Language of the Company)
“The last component is taking time to do your research, especially if it’s a large organization. The annual report of any organization is a blueprint for what that industry is, how that company talks, what its values are, and what it focuses on. That 12– or 90–page report can be your secret code to see how you can speak a bit more in the language of that company. Without that, if it’s a smaller company that doesn’t have a robust reporting approach, find people on the website from that company and say, ‘Hey, I’m passionate about this opportunity but I’m curious to see if my skills and experience match. Can we have a virtual meeting or a coffee?’ In smaller organizations, there’s less of that natural networking that happens at large organizations, so people are usually up for it.”
7. Switching jobs comes with risk. How did you build resilience and approach change to feel less risky?
“I hate change, but I’m certified in change management. Maybe that’s why I’m good at it. I think the way my career is unfolding is going to be more typical. I think that’s just how quickly companies are coming together, how things are disrupted. Change is going to happen to you, and you have to be ready for it.
I love the HR business part. I was biking between branches. I was really integrated with those businesses. I’m still friends with those Regional Vice Presidents. I love that job. But then I got this opportunity to compete for this one-of-a-kind job, which was the Chief of Staff role, the senior advisor role to the CHRO. Shout out to Sandra Corelli, my favourite boss of all time. I hope she reads this. I looked her in the eye when they asked me to compete for the role and I said, ‘Do you think I can do it?’ And she’s like, ‘You can do it.’ I’ve been lucky to have good leaders who have given me the support and encouragement to go through change. I‘m very grateful for those external factors.
In terms of Edge Moves, I think because I’ve had to dive into unknown environments, I showed myself quickly that you can learn if you put your mind to it. This is not some montage of a movie lawyer reading books until 4:00 a.m. You don’t have to know life. You learn to go, ‘Okay, I don’t know the answer to this question.’
Case in point, I started off at the real estate company and the jargon was so intense. Just as much as banking’s regulated, real estate is chomping on the heels of being as regulated as banking. The assistant to the President was very helpful to me. I asked him questions, and I also gave him value back because he had some questions about the direction of the company and how he could grow in terms of his personal brand.”
Interviewer
Finka Jerkovic
Career Advancement Coach and Founder of Finka Inc.
With 25+ years in leadership and sales and the financial services industry, she has witnessed the power of recognizing and celebrating people’s unique strengths and differences (a.k.a Brilliant Differences™) within a workplace. When everyone’s unique talents are appreciated and people work together using them, that’s when the real magic of career and business growth happens. Fast forward 10 years. Finka has established programs that help mid-career professionals and leaders grow in their careers by tapping into the full potential of their personal brand, so they can clearly define their strengths, value their differences, and perform at their best.
Interviewee
Jeff Brown
Executive Coach
Born and raised in Toronto, Jeff Brown’s love for the city drives his work. His experience in human resources and operations was honed on Bay Street, leading transformational real estate projects in banking. This led Jeff to join The Heaps Estrin Team Real Estate Team, Royal LePage’s #1 Residential Brokerage in Canada for the past 5 years. Simplifying processes and systems to enhance the client experience is an important part of Jeff’s mandate. Jeff’s focus on developing and growing teams is a hallmark of Jeff’s approach to leadership. Jeff holds a Bachelor of Religious Studies from Queen’s University and a Master’s of Public Administration from Dalhousie University. Jeff has given back to the city by consulting the Board of Directors for Cycle Toronto and The Aphasia Institute.
